Oct. 19

3:23 PM

Tolerance, Bigotry, and Tolerating Bigotry

 

I’m something of a Luddite, and so my involvement in online social networking has been slow, cautious, and, to be frank, often misguided—hence that Friendster account I only recently abandoned. Due to this, I’m chronically out of whatever loops are currently going, though I’ve been getting a bit better at following what’s been going on inside the greater genre community. With that in mind, if any of what I’m saying seems clumsy or slightly off-base please feel free to set me straight, and of course the topic at hand isn’t one that only relates to the genre community so feel free to link to any relevant articles or posts if they seem topical. What I’m slowing shambling toward is a question that’s been on my mind more and more of later, which amounts to how much benefit of the doubt we are willing to give those who express bigoted sentiments before we decide that discussion and education is fruitless and writing them off is the only sensible decision to maintain one's own peace of mind.

 

I’m probably the worst candidate for gently educating bigots, as I tend to lose my temper when confronted with the smug, patronizing attitude that so often characterizes these debates—desiring equal rights for all human beings is such a simple premise that when confronted with people who think otherwise I sometimes lose my shit. This is a weakness of mine, and one that I’m constantly trying to work on—this Ill Doctrine’s clip is a good place to start, if you’re anything like me. It’s nothing new, either— I got into a lot of fights (read: I got beat up a lot and only occasionally landed a punch) in grade school after my all-white classmates found out I had a black friend who lived in the nearby city, and rather than renouncing this heinous relationship I stuck up for the absent object of their hostility. Rural Pennsylvania, man—they may have never seen a person of color other than on TV, but that didn’t stop them from hating out of general principle.

 

I’m not bringing this up to boast about what an awesome white liberal I am, battling the hordes of ignorance with only two bloody knuckles and a fourth-grader’s sense of justice—I’m bringing it up because I think that was about as good a person as I’ve ever been, and after we moved down south that fearless championing of human rights fell into something more cautious and careful. As I grew older I would still engage people in debate, but there comes a time when you have to stop punching people who disagree with you.

 

Flash forward to the day when I’m an adult with online friends I’ve never met in real life and we get to a unique problem—it’s much easier, for me, at least, to get a feel for someone when they’re standing in front of me than it is to figure it all out based only on black-and-white text on a computer monitor. In the absence of hard evidence to the contrary, I would give people the benefit of the doubt, since I tend to be given to the blatherz myself and wouldn’t want someone to assume the worst about me based on some ill-considered sentence structure, but the longer I was online and the more angry, bigoted posts I would see the less willing to give people the benefit of the doubt I became, and, unfortunately, the more I began to question the effectiveness in mature discourse as a way of educating bigots. This led to a prickly impasse—how much should we tolerate bigotry in the hopes of changing minds through reasonable debate when said bigotry shows little sign of relenting even in the face of facts and figures and many a testimonial?

 

It’s obviously different for everyone, and perhaps more difficult if the bigotry is coming from family rather than friends, but still—there comes a time when we have to acknowledge that we are incapable of altering the ingrained hatred, and by “respectfully disagreeing” we are simply giving the bigot in question license to spout their screeds—everyone likes an audience, and with the bigots I’ve met they seem to take a perverse delight out of lecturing to an audience who vehemently disagrees with them. Now, I’m certainly not advocating that we stick our heads in the sand, nor do I think debate should be silenced—but I’ve come to the conclusion that at a certain point a firm refutation of their claims followed by a kiss-off is far more healthy for me, emotionally, and no less effective than polite disagreement at evoking a reaction and maybe, just maybe, a self-examination (there I go giving people the benefit of the doubt again…).

 

I’ve recently lost people I counted as friends due to this, and I’m only sorry I didn’t drop them sooner. One guy kept posting about how white privilege didn’t exist and the concept was racist against white people and how gay people were annoying and how illegal immigrants were comparable to rapists and then deleting his posts whenever people called him on it. I sent him a note explaining that his furious rants were off-putting and that I wasn’t willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he wasn’t a bigot—he responded with a typically self-righteous 20 paragraph email railing against the evils of Mexicans and liberals and stupid white college girls who never lived in the real world and implying that I was threatening his career. The email at least confirmed he was a conscious bigot rather than an oblivious one, and a kook to boot, which in turn confirmed I’d done the right thing in dropping him like a bad habit—he never had any intention of listening to opposing viewpoints, he simply wanted an audience for his paranoid racist, sexist, and homophobic rants.

 

Another guy responded to a rhetorical question I posed about why society hadn’t progressed more in terms of gay rights by saying something like “probably because gay people are so annoying.” We got into it, and when I demanded clarification he blathered about gay people having caved in to right wing family values and he liked them when they were freaks and he thought emo kids probably had it worse than gays now and a bunch of other stuff that was neither relevant nor apologetic for his initial bullshit but was increasingly offensive to my oh so delicate bleeding heart sensibilities, and so there went a several year relationship with someone I had previously found little fault with. Should I have done more, done better, to educate him? Maybe, but I just couldn’t handle it anymore, not with gay kids committing suicide at record rates due to bullying from straight kids who find them “annoying.”

 

And it goes on—another white male writer I had an online disagreement with maintains that there’s a difference between black people and n_____s, which are presumably a subset of the African-American populace, but I’m not engaging with that fucking asshole again, because time and again it’s been proven that some bigots simply want to make you mad and have no interest in actually discussing the issues. Jut look at the Elizabeth Moon thing, or any number of other examples of bigots wanting to be heard but refusing to listen. There’s obviously the problem of letting vocal hatred go unchallenged, something I am never in favor of, but I’ve found at least for me it’s important to acknowledge that some people simply will not listen, and it’s not the fault of the challenger if the challenged puts on blinders and earplugs.

 

A couple of days ago, for example, an article by Gustavo Bondoni ran at Apex called “Plucking the PC Parrots of the Genre World.” With that title you can, I’m sure, infer that it was in no way inflammatory or dismissive toward people who disagree with the author. The gist of the article was a rehash of the all-male table of contents for the Mind-Blowing SF anthology from a ways back, with the point being that quotas, that bugbear of hardworking white dudes everywhere, are pointless and unfair because “most modern people are color blind and gender-blind.” When I pointed out that most people probably weren’t ether of those things, especially since in the article itself Bondoni groups authors based on their genders (Men do better SF, women do better Victorian Lit, in his humble opinion), but of course he alleges that his creation of this binary is completely different and in no way disproves his claim of genderblindness. Furthermore, my bringing it up is a sure sign that he and I will have to “agree to disagree,” which is undoubtedly true—he steadfastly maintains there is no racism or sexism in the genre world, nor really, it would seem, in the US, and when one starts from such an extremely myopic and dangerous position then true debate is impossible.

 

Now, I’m not necessarily accusing him of anything beyond writing a sloppy article that relies on an unsubstantiated and frankly ignorant premise and then refusing to engage in real debate, but it is interesting that the author does adopt many of the hallmarks of the bigot to make his case: he offers unsolicited assurances that he is not in fact a bigot, he denies a problem exists, he denies the methods that have historically been effective in redressing the problem of being valid in any circumstance, he insists that the methods of redressing social injustice are even less "fair" than the original problem, he substitutes his personal experiences and preferences for reality, he accuses those who disagree with him of being zombies/parrots/hysterical/etc., he attempts to derail any real opposition, he attributes his unwillingness to engage as resulting from the challenger’s tone, he claims he is colorblind and genderblind, he claims such a blind scenario is both desirable and feasible on a global scale, and finally, when confronted with an example of an apparent hypocrisy and fallacy in his argument, he decides it’s time to “agree to disagree” rather than continuing the debate. So yeah, I’m not saying he’s a bigot, but if it walks like a parrot and it squawks like a parrot…

 

So what does one do? Even though I don’t think I’m always the most effective, cool-headed person to engage people with debate I’ll damn sure keep trying, because the only thing that pisses me off more than bigots posting their screeds is when well-intentioned people simply shake their heads and say “well, that’s your opinion, and I respect it even if I don’t agree with” rather than confronting hatred and bigotry. The bottom line is that these opinions are not respectable or defensible on any level, and when you pretend that they are you give the bigot the validation he or she so desperately craves. If you think you can do more good by maintaining a friendship with a bigot and gently trying to change his or her mind over an extended period of time more power to you, but in my experience all that does is encourage and embolden them. Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing, but sometimes the consequences of that is you lose friends—but so far I’ve found that you always make better ones in the result. As a general principle, I think tolerance for difference viewpoints and experiences is incredibly important, crucial, even, but when one refuses to extend the same courtesy to others then they are no longer deserving of an audience—let them bellow into the darkness, and be done with them.

 


Hi Jesse,

Sorry to have convinced you so thoroughly that I am, in fact, a bigot.

The sad thing is that I actually agree with most of the methods you espouse to deal with bigotry, and have gotten into more than one argument (online even, so they should still be there, wherever they were), in which I have violently disagreed with someone for having bigoted opinions.

What we were discussing in the other post was a question of which is the best way to act within the genre, and whether reverse this is desirable method. Does, injustice, applied in this way, serve to solve earlier injustices, and does the genre really need it? I'm glad to have inspired this post (more discussion in this topic is always welcome), but saddened by your conclusion about me.

Gustavo on Oct. 19, 2010 at 3:52 PM

Gustavo,

I'm glad to hear that you're not a bigot. Perhaps if you hadn't started with, and reiterated in the course of the discussion, the assertion that sexism and racism are no longer problems than I might not have reacted the way I did, but, as I said in the above article, I have only your words to go on. I wonder, given that you maintain that political correctness is always problematic and bigotry is no longer an issue in the genre community, how you would respond to PoC and women who claim to have experienced racism, sexism, etc. in the community? Are they confused about what's really going on? Forgive me if I find it rather patronizing and yes, even bigoted, to ignore the complaints of minorities and deny that a problem exists simply because you haven't experienced it from your place of privilege. And I'm still curious as to why your creation of a binary between male and female writers in your article isn't incompatible with the notion of genderblindness that you claim to possess--when I asked about it before you said we'd have to agree to disagree, but I'm not sure why that is--I'd love to hear your rationale.

Jesse Bullington on Oct. 19, 2010 at 4:09 PM

Cool, a bit less swamped with millions of comments now, so I can actually stop and respond. If women and PoC have been subject to discrimination, I would like to hear the details. The reason I gave an example is that - right or wrong - this is something we can point at. I know this is a difficult subject for the victims to talk about, but I can't call them on it if I don't know about it.

I know there are imbeciles in every walk of life who ruin it for the rest of us - I'm not aware of any of them currently practicing in the genre world, but it might be going on and I didn't see it.

As for the binary nature of it, it comes down to the stories themselves, and a bit of historical perspective. As I said, I enjoy Golden Age SF, which was a genre consisting mainly of ex-fans and was predominantly male. I don't necessarily enjoy it for its male characteristics, but because it is clearly SF written in a simpler time. I've read the women writer of the era, but none of their stories really moved me enough to include them in my top stories list (which would, admittedly be heavy with three or four writers and not many more).

As for the Victorians, I was surprised at my own choices. I expected Pride and Prejudice to be a boring slog, full of mushy stuff (not because it was written by a woman, but because it was, in my mind, a romantic novel). Instead, I found a vibrant, brilliant novel that transcends all gender boundaries without ever ceasing to be absolutely femenine. Blew Dickens right out of the water and led to immediate readings of the Brontes, who did likewise.

I just used this as an examplee that the gender of a writer is irrelevant - only the quality matters. I never meant to say that women write better Victorian and men write better SF.

Gustavo on Oct. 19, 2010 at 4:29 PM

And when I say "call them on it", I'm referring to the bigots, not the victims. That wasn't my clearest sentence.

Gustavo on Oct. 19, 2010 at 4:53 PM

LINKSPAM!

http://community.livejournal.com/foc_u/
http://wiki.feministsf.net/index.php?title=RaceFail_09
http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/146697.html (related to above)
http://e-moon60.livejournal.com/335480.html
http://community.livejournal.com/racism_101/

The above are all chock-full of incidents of, reactions of, and responses to bigotry (of all sorts), the first four specifically in genre fiction. The last is where I hope you will go after educating yourself--because it is not our onus to do so. You have been told there is bigotry, and you attempted, if I may borrow from my incredibly geeky yesteryear, to disbelieve. All this stuff is recent, contemporary even. This is happening now. Open your eyes, or at least have the wherewithal to admit you'd rather keep them closed.

Layogenic on Oct. 19, 2010 at 5:22 PM

OK link bombing indeed.

Racefail? Man I remember that one. Will NOT commit the mistake of giving a moderate opinion about it. I'll just say that I disagree with any attempt to keep writers from writing the other, which was probably not the point, but which is what I, and a lot of others, ended up taking away from it after it became such a mess.

The Moon link, strange indeed. A couple of things there that got my attention, but can't really give an opinion as I live outside the US, and wasn't part of that discussion.

The communities are interesting, and I'll have to take the time to look deeper here. But a large number of the posts seem to have a language that is very specific, kind of like a technical jargon, which I haven't seen elsewhere. And many of the people posting seem to be whites who aren't sure how to deal with racial issues (again, this was a cursory reading, and I'll go further in).

What I don't see (other than in parts of the Moon post) are specific instances of racism taking place. This is something to celebrate, but it isn't educating me as to what I need to watch out for.

Is the notion of privilege the new definition of racism? Do people who don't practice bigotry need to be called for not being as "activist" as they should be?

It seems extreme and counter-productive to me. Guilt doesn't seem to be a very effective social driver. Isn't there something more constructive that can be done instead? That, in essence, is what the original post was asking.

Gustavo on Oct. 19, 2010 at 6:01 PM

I'd like to confront you on, oh...everything you just said there, but this isn't my space and my energy's better spent elsewhere. In short, and in parting, in this comment as in many of your others on your article, you've asked for specific examples, gotten them, and then decided they weren't "good enough" or "extreme enough" for your personal tastes. The tastes of somebody who does not have to be confronted with bigotry every day of their lives. That and every instance of you cherry-picking topics to respond to, telling people how activist they should be while denying them the equal right to tell you, deciding how much affirmative action is "enough" for marginalized people, are all instances of this "privilege" we speak of. Privilege isn't racism, but it's where racism, specifically *institutionalized* racism, comes from, along with everything else othered from those who are privileged.

For solutions, we have to somehow figure out how to make people in those positions of privilege stop and consider that they are. For me it took a good deal of haranguing by people who loved me, and sweetheart, I don't have that much invested in how much of an asshole you are. That I know where you're coming from just makes me madder, and it's why I added my voice to begin with, but you keep asking for us (in sideways, back-handed terms) to educate you and we have other lives to deal with. Educate yourself. Join Racism 101 and ask questions there--that's why it was MADE, to help people starting at the bottom rung of self-enlightenment on this topic. That is, if you really do want to learn.

Layogenic on Oct. 19, 2010 at 6:34 PM

@ Gustavo--if what you took away from Racefail was that whites shouldn't attempt to write about non-white subjects, then your reading proficiency is even more stunted than your previous responses to comments on your article have implied. As for your claim that "Guilt doesn't seem to be a very effective social driver. Isn't there something more constructive that can be done instead? That, in essence, is what the original post was asking," I must politely call bullshit. Your article was about how quotas are bad bad bad and racism and sexism aren't a problem because it's all just personal taste anyway and people who disagree are nattering nabobs of negativity. That may not have what you intended by writing the article, but again, all we have to go on are the words you wrote down, read over several times, and chose to publish as they were.

@ Layogenic--thanks for contributing the links and insight, and agreed on just about everything. You're right that energy is better spent elsewhere where stubborn bigotry is concerned, which was the point of my whole article, and your taking the time to provide links and common sense is much appreciated.

Gustavo, as I and others have said in the comments on your article and elsewhere, until you acknowledge there is a problem you remain a part of the problem, and that's a simple fact--progress is impossible until you choose to acknowledge that progress needs to be made. And dude, in re: to the gender binary you created--how the hell is creating a binary between male and female writers "an examplee (sic) that the gender of a writer is irrelevant - only the quality matters..."??? You keep talking about personal preference, sure, fine, but stop claiming you're "genderblind" when you're obviously not, or you wouldn't have brought it up in the first place.

Jesse Bullington on Oct. 19, 2010 at 6:55 PM

Sorry I engaged more with Gustavo than on your article--I didn't intend to follow him here but read your link, and got sidetracked as I so often do. I come from a similar background of privilege, though, and so I feel like I should have more patience with...

Well whatever. As for your article, it's a line we have to draw for ourselves. If we knew how to break the shell of ignorance we tend to build up around ourselves without error, well, there'd be a lot less of these kinds of questions floating around! I involve myself haphazardly, not least because I'm still exploring my role both as a marginalised person and as an ally to others and so am unsure where the solid boundaries lie. In particular, as you state, on the internet, where it's impossible to tell for sure (although often easy to guess) that the person you're confronting is really who they present themselves to be.

On my own turf, I'm willing to engage on all fronts, regardless, but I try to keep myself from sailing to the aid of an ally unless invited to do so--just as we can't define the lines other people draw in the sand, neither can we define bigotry for a different marginalised group. Even if we really, really disagree. But until we live in some amazing bizarr-o world where it's the people who can't think for themselves that question the rights of the majority, and where all the bad things have already stopped happening, as in Gustavo's idyllic happyland, there's always someplace we can take the fight.

Layogenic on Oct. 19, 2010 at 7:09 PM

I found your post about this issue to be refreshing. So many of these anti-PC writers don't seem to recognize that they are clamoring for the good ole days, when you didn't have consider experiences outside a narrow sphere. The implication that published writing by women or POC is 'affirmative action' fiction and not the really good stuff is very disturbing.

Craig Laurance Gidney on Oct. 19, 2010 at 8:34 PM

@ Layogenic--hey, no need to apologize for initially engaging more with him than me--he's the one that needs to hear dissent from his message, after all, and the more voices he hears the more likely he is to listen. Or so I hope. And yeah, speaking on behalf of marginalized people when you yourself are part of the majority that has caused the problem in the first place is indeed treading dangerous waters, but as you say being aware of the problematic nature of the discussion--and acknowledging a discussion needs to take place--is a pretty crucial first step.

@ Craig--glad you enjoyed the post, and took the time to add your two cents. Frankly, even the phrase "PC" sets my teeth on edge because, as you point out, what we're really talking about is ensuring equal civil rights, but people like Gustavo use the term to turn it around and try to make it sound like a desire for basic equality is simply cheap political maneuvering. Treating people equally is not "politically" correct, it is correct, period, and to hear (mostly white male) people whine about how "unfair" it is that those crazy liberals want to redress generations of systemic oppression is downright sickening.

Jesse Bullington on Oct. 19, 2010 at 8:51 PM

Since Layogenic was kind enough to share links, I'll do the same. Anti-racism Theory is only one approach of many to deal with the problems of privilege, and some fine thinkers believe it is inherently flawed. Here are two short pieces by people of color:

The limits of anti-racism by Adolph Reed Jr.: http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/Antiracism.html

Why Anti-Racism Will Fail, by Thandeka: http://archive.uua.org/ga/ga99/238thandeka.html

Many anti-racism theorists assume white people who doubt antiracism theory are racist, but if you're not among them, I recommend Race, class, and "whiteness theory" by Sharon Smith: http://www.isreview.org/issues/46/whiteness.shtml

And also The Trouble With Diversity by Walter Benn Michaels: http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?articleId=11864

will shetterly on Oct. 19, 2010 at 9:31 PM

Will,

thanks for the links, I did indeed check them out. Personally, I don't think all white people who doubt anti-racism theory are necessarily racist--I see a lot of room in there for them to simply be uneducated or disconnected from reality (insert high hat riff). Seriously though, nothing in what you've provided makes me really rethink my positions, and I see some pretty serious oversimplifications and misunderstandings going on where the opponents of anti-racism are discussing its so-called problems. Obviously exploring the intersection of class and race is very important, but dumping anti-racism theory just because class is also a factor seems incredibly naive, to say nothing of all the other flaws I find with the arguments of anti-racism's opponents.

Oh, and for future reference it doesn't really matter to me whether or not an article is written by a person of color--I'm a big Tim Wise fan, and that guy's whiter than me.

Jesse Bullington on Oct. 19, 2010 at 11:39 PM

Nice rant, Jesse. Well-put.

I think what bothers me the most is that it's become taboo to call someone out for being racist, sexist, classist, and pretty much any other common form of prejudiced. Decent politicians and pundits (a rare find, but that's another story) get accused of "playing the race card" when they confront another about a blatantly racist comment. While some people DO cry "racism" when it has nothing to do with the subject at hand, it's not the norm. Suddenly, it's as if calling someone a racist is wrong, even when it's accurate.

I can also think of frequent dismissals of sexism accusations...if the accuser is a woman, then she MUST be a bitch, cunt, dyke, misandrist, or at the very least, overreacting. I get that with my own father (if I point out something sexist he said/insinuated, he'll cut me off with, "Easy...!" because the little lady needs to calm down.)

Seems like calling out bigotry is almost as taboo as the bigotry itself, nowadays...

Melissa D. on Oct. 19, 2010 at 11:51 PM

Read the first two articles, Shett. Here's my takes on both, as well as your constant derailment, in a nutshell:

That race and class are tangled up issues I have no argument against. I believe, as do many contemporary activists of all stripes, that intersectionality is a critical part of understanding bigotry as a whole, as well as forming productive countermeasures that will someday curb the damage it does to our lives. I agree that classism is a problem in America with a history of being obfuscated, right down to the myth of our "classless society" as defined by lack of a peasant or serf population in one direction or aristocracy in the other, on our inception as a country. That classism is guilty of creating its own sets of glass ceilings, and its own language of oppression.

What I disagree with is the idea that classism is THE problem. It is A problem, and it is an insidious one, yes, and I don't believe that ignorance of it will ever create a social model that allows us to move forward. But it is a problem among others, and to usurp any discussion of race with the claim that racism isn't the problem, classism is, or worse that racism was *replaced* with classism and thus racism is no longer a topic worth discussing, is equally damaging. And this is where you, Shett, stomping into every conversation you can google, come in.

If a person, or a group, is discussing racism, it is neither helpful nor cogent to interrupt that discussion with a derailment of the topic, regardless of what you feel is "the real problem." In such a statement you are not only breaking intersectionality from the get-go, you're defining somebody else's experiences for them, an ingrained response of privilege (which, yes, despite Thandeka's remonstrations I believe to be a crucial factor in all bigotry). Yes, there are limits to what, in the greater political arena, pure anti-racism can accomplish, but we're already quite aware of how much good somebody coming down the wire and telling us what our REAL problem is can do, as well. Politicians, especially of the conservative stripe but definitely not limited to them, have been doing it for...well, ever. It's the biggest strawman argument outside of organised religion.

Alright, so this turned into a pretty big nutshell, but here's one more piece of hazelnut to go with it. Let me affirm that, in an arena like this, where the question is "What is the problem?" or "What can be done?" comments of this nature seem appropriate. Bringing another side of the argument to light is helpful and productive, and maybe gives a few more people some ideas of the wider spectrum of bigotry they hadn't had before, in a place where they're asking for such illumination. In a place where the topic is set as racist experience, this sort of trump is not.

And, as a footnote, I addressed the first two articles here, but I also read the third--unaddressed, because the author seems to make so many bizarre leaps of logic, finds parallels where there are none, and exhibits very questionable research, so that I can't even focus on the ultimate message, which seems to be the same goal of intersectional acceptance come at from a very strange and meandering path of almost-logic.

Layogenic on Oct. 20, 2010 at 12:27 AM

Melissa D--your issue is definitely well-documented. It was my own downfall, in fact; I was so offended by being called racist that I refused to engage on WHY I was being called racist. It's where people like Gustavo come from, in more subtle form, as well; if we don't believe there's a problem, then what's everybody else shouting about, right?

And it's particularly evident in all these online discussions. RaceFail was, essentially, one after another instance of Person Says Offensive Thing -> Person Is Called Out on Offensive Thing -> Person Is Offended By Being Called Out -> Defenders Attack Caller For Hurting Offender's Feelings, rehashed and revisited so many times it becomes a whirl. I've said it elsewhere, but the crime of hurting a bigot's feelings is seen as a greater social crime than being a bigot.

Layogenic on Oct. 20, 2010 at 12:36 AM

Layogenic's comment sums up my thoughts on these matters quite nicely. However, I just wanted to add that none of the articles linked by Will engage with (or even acknowledge) the plethora of fantastic post-Marxist scholarship that deals explicitly with racism in terms of contemporary labor politics. It is absolutely acceptable to decry Marxist perceptions of race relations (and gender relations, for that matter) given the undeniable differences in the historical conditions under which Marxist theory, on the one hand, and contemporary labor practices, on the other, emerged.

As Layogenic notes, this entire debate distracts from the original topic, but I wanted to throw that out there.

Raechel on Oct. 20, 2010 at 12:56 AM

Okay, erm... I'm going to commit a cardinal sin. I mean, one of the biggies.

See, I think the language of these debates needs to change. Before I started learning about privilege, I never knowingly treated anyone any differently on account of their gender, race, sexuality or anything else. I didn't lurk in back allies and beat up gays and I didn't spit on black people I saw walking down the street. So I became aware of these discussions, and suddenly there's all these people telling me I'm a racist and a bigot. I go from being a normal guy just trying to live my life and get on with people to being in the same category as the KKK and Hitler. Damn right I got upset about that.

I don't think--and I'd be surprised if anyone on any side of the debate thinks--that someone operating on the sub-conscious programming of privilege is the same as someone who actively preaches hate and goes out of their way to physically harm those different from them. But there's one word for both types of people. And we've been trained by the media to assume 'racist' refers to the very worst types.

I know telling activists how to fight their fight is wrong. I know it's me coming in with my privilege and dictating the terms of their liberation to them. I know that, while I'm doing that, I'm denying them the liberation they're fighting for while trying to appear to support it. And I know people who do that the worst kind of people in a lot of ways.

I just understand why people like Gustavo get upset when they've been living their lives, getting on and making friends with all the people they meet, and suddenly they're being told they're in the same category of people as the groups who tie people to the backs of cars and drag them around until their eventually die, cheering and drinking beer.

So I don't think bigotry and racism should be tolerated. I don't think anyone who's a victim of them has an obligation to educate their oppressors or play nice with them. But I do think there's an important difference between saying, 'you're talking from a position of privilege' and, 'you're a racist'.

So anyway, that's the end of my privilege-stomping. I'm not going to try and tear down anyone calling a parrot a parrot or insist they change. I just wanted to wave my two cents around a bit.

Dylan Fox on Oct. 20, 2010 at 1:56 AM

Dylan--you say here in much more meticulous detail what I said in response to Melissa D explicitly, and less explicitly in other comments for Gustavo. It's HARD to be called a racist and not freak out--and privilege comes in where you don't have to take that sort of thing. Gustavo can, and may, walk away from this discussion and never ever think about privilege or racism as applies to him again. That's a privilege of his, and it is not afforded many other people.

And it's why the term privilege has been publicized in these discussions. Because there is racism, and if you practice it you are a racist, but the reasons behind that racism are as varied as there are walks of life. It doesn't, however, mean that you aren't racist just because you didn't mean it, and eventually, that's going to have to be internalized if progress is to be made. KKK activity is an example of racial terrorism, but there are much more subtle examples of racism.

The issue with language is, well, linguistic. And as ridiculous as it is to expect a person of colour to set aside their lives to educate my white ass about racism, it is equally so to expect them to change the language of their oppression to make me feel better about having oppressed them.

Layogenic on Oct. 20, 2010 at 2:27 AM

Jesse, the whiteness of prominent (and very well paid) neoliberal anti-racism theorists like Tim Wise, Judith Katz, and Peggy McIntosh has troubled a number of black folks.

Layo, I've never said classism is "The problem." I've been beaten by racists; I'll never deny racism exists.

The idea that race and class are tangled is fairly new to scifi fandom's anti-racists; it's hard to find any of them acknowledging it before 2009. I'm delighted that class is finally being recognized, though I wish it wasn't recognized in order to be dismissed. When the elephant is in the intersection, you need to do more than say, "Yes, I agree there's an elephant at the intersection of First and Main, but I want to talk about First Street as if Main Street isn't there, so let's ignore the elephant now."

Now, this is an extremely flawed metaphor, I grant, because I'm using the anti-racist assumption that race and class are only intersecting. But as Thandeka notes in "The Whiting of Euro-Americans: A Divide and Conquer Strategy", "we must not forget that white racism was from the start a vehicle for classism; its primary goal was not to elevate a race but to denigrate a class. White racism was thus a means to and end, and the end was the defense of Virginia’s class structure and the further subjugation of the poor of all "racial" colors."

As for me stomping into discussions, I've been an active part of the f&sf; community since the early 1980s. My first Wiscon was ages ago--before Emma was a GoH. When I see my community becoming intolerant of disagreement, when I see banning and censoring and calls for blacklists and anonymous death threats, I become very, very troubled. Elizabeth Moon's comments were seriously misguided, as I told her at length. (That was lost when she deleted the comments, but there's a copy of my part of the discussion with her here.)

But much of the reaction to her is very misguided. The free debate of ideas matters. The power to silence others is seductive, and few who have a devout faith in the rightness of their cause can resist it, but it gives rise to Jacobins and Maoists and witch-hunters and crusaders, and ultimately hurts the cause it springs from. If you have faith that anti-racism theory is right, trust that it can survive being tested by those who doubt it.

will shetterly on Oct. 20, 2010 at 10:20 AM

@ Melissa and Layogenic--agreed on the wounded and often baffled reaction we see from bigots when they're called on their behavior--obviously nobody likes to have unpleasant truths pointed out about themselves or their friends, but denying anything hurtful or inflammatory was said in the first place stifles any kind of dialogue or self-reflection. Freedom of speech doesn't exonerate you from repercussions for what you choose to say, and being called out for being as ass isn't exactly censorship.

@ Dyland and Layogenic--communication is difficult to begin with, and when we start trying to talk about something as insidious and pervasive as racism the language we use can obviously stifle any dialogue before it begins. That was part of what I was talking about in my article, particularly the Ill Doctrine link, wherein he discusses the difference between telling someone what they said is racist and telling them that they are racist. Like any other -ism, racism takes myriad shapes and obviously being a well-intentioned individual who is born into privilege isn't the same as a member of the Klan or even an active bigot--but changing the language would lessen the impact, and the impact needs to be there because as Layogenic points out, the harsh reality is something that can't simply be ignored by the oppressed, so why should the unintentional oppressor?

I really do hear what you're saying, Dylan, which again is something I struggle with here and in my day to day life--the question of trying to be more careful when addressing these issues so as not to be immediately off-putting to the defensive-but-potentially-convincible versus letting people off the hook in an honest-if-potentially-ineffective attempt to ease them into accepting their part in the problem as gently as possible. So what I was blundering toward was agreement with Layogenic that it's not up to us to determine the language of the debate, only the language we personally choose to employ--and obviously for discussion to progress we all need to be agreed on the definitions and vocabulary, and so sparing peoples feeling is simply not an option at times--just as it can be initially hard to hear, the force and impact of the language is the very thing that can make people realize the severity of their complacence with the status quo.

@ Will-- As Layogenic and Raechel pointed out, the issue is not that class should not be discussed, the issue is that the links you provide demonstrate sloppy theory, some pretty big jumps in "logic," fundamental misunderstandings and/or mischaracterizations of anti-racism theory, derailment from the current discussion, and some brokedown Marxist theory that is woefully out-of-date. If you re-read my article--the one above, that you're nominally commenting on--I was specifically talking about personally navigating the best ways to combat bigotry in general and a column that denied that racism and sexism are problems in the states or the genre community in particular. If we can agree that these things exist and need to be confronted and combated, why obfuscate things by throwing up a bunch of anti-anti-racist links? And didn't your English teacher school you on double negatives?

Moon was mentioned in passing, and at no point did I call for banning or censoring, though now that you mention it I do think WisCon should have rescinded her GoH status given all the particulars, and as much as she and her supporters might try to label that censorship it most certainly isn't--it's a repercussion for choosing to exercise her free speech, and it happens all the goddamn time, and it is in no way analogous to being imprisoned for speaking your mind, it's simply having someone take back the soapbox they offered you after finding out what sort of trash you were planning on talking. I have never and will never be in favor of death threats, nor do I think anyone is actually blacklisting her--but again, if people choose not to work with you or financially support you after you say some dumb shit and then refuse to apologize for it than thems the breaks, and again characterizing it as somehow unfair is a pity party I have no interest in attending.

So yeah, you've momentarily but effectively steered the discussion away from where it began and instead focused on Moon and how misguided the rabid anti-racist hordes are, which is not something I'm terribly interested in discussing--I'm sure there are plenty of places where Moon is still the focus of the debate, and I'm sure you could find them if you tried. What's really a pity about all this is that the creation of the white race and the class issues surrounding it are all incredibly interesting and important to understanding the current state of affairs, but when this is brought out to derail the ongoing discussion of bigotry rather than to add to it then I quickly lose interest. So doubt away, but if you're going to get all hyperbolic about it and trot out the Maoists and crusaders and other boogeymen when we're simply talking about calling bigots on their shit then I'd respectfully suggest you find another Speaker's Corner--with the internet being what it is I'd say you're spoiled for choice in that regard.

Jesse Bullington on Oct. 20, 2010 at 11:23 AM

Oh yeah, and regarding your opening about some people of color being troubled by the whiteness of Wise and others, I ask, again, so what? Some people of color think Alan Keyes is the bees knees, but that doesn't mean I'm going to listen to his dumbass--the opposition or support of "a number of black folks" is not the only criteria by which I judge an individual, and I can't imagine it is for any reasonable, free-thinking person.

Jesse Bullington on Oct. 20, 2010 at 11:28 AM

Saying that canceling a speaker is only "a repercussion for choosing to exercise her free speech" suggests your definition of free speech and mine cannot be reconciled: either speakers are allowed to speak, or they are not. Under Joe McCarthy, people suspected of being communists were equally free to exercise their free speech and accept repercussions that included banning and blacklisting.

Moon is a religious bigot, but the work that she did has not changed: If it deserved to be honored, it still deserves to be honored.

Something you and I share: "desiring equal rights for all human beings is such a simple premise that when confronted with people who think otherwise I sometimes lose my shit." Classist assholes can make me go ballistic, but even so, my definition of "all" includes people I disagree with, and my definition of "rights" includes the right to say things I disagree with.

will shetterly on Oct. 20, 2010 at 1:16 PM

Moon can say whatever she wants, as we both agree is her right, but that doesn't mean people are obligated to listen. Do you really think a Guest of Honor invitation being rescinded when the recipient makes statements that run contrary to an organization's goals is comparable to the McCarthy witch-hunts? Utter tosh--and didn't I already say this probably isn't the best place for absurd, hyperbolic grandstanding?

Jesse Bullington on Oct. 20, 2010 at 1:28 PM

"If we can agree that these things exist and need to be confronted and combated, why obfuscate things by throwing up a bunch of anti-anti-racist links? And didn't your English teacher school you on double negatives?"

Regarding the first question, I'm with Thandeka: Anti-racism theorists misunderstand the nature of power in the US, and therefore their vague, feel-good solutions are wrong. Regarding the second, knocking the double negative and questioning people's education is hella classist. In many black and white dialects, the double negative is just fine. Its use in English goes back at least to Chaucer, so, really, it ain't no thang.

will shetterly on Oct. 20, 2010 at 1:33 PM

If you'd care to explain how rescinding an invitation based on a speaker's views is unlike rescinding an invitation based on a speaker's views, I'd be very grateful, because I certainly don't want to fall for utter tosh. Just last year, Notre Dame was under pressure by right-to-life Catholics to rescind Obama's invitation to speak. Should they have rescinded it? It was certainly contrary to the organization's goals.

will shetterly on Oct. 20, 2010 at 1:40 PM

You'll also notice, in terms of the implied allegation regarding the muzzling of free speech and bringing things back to the original point of the post that we keep drifting away from, that at no point did I say that Apex shouldn't have published Bondoni's article--I just said that the article was stupid and wrong and reflected a dangerous myopia on the part of the author. Even if Apex had elected not to publish the article that wouldn't have been censorship, either, simply an editorial decision not to run a piece. I worry that the entitlement culture of America has led us to take certain freedoms for granted and assume that any time things don't go the way we want we're automatically being persecuted. Total bullshit.

Jesse Bullington on Oct. 20, 2010 at 1:41 PM

Do I think private entities are obligated to actively court speakers whose views they disagree with? No. That's pretty basic, I would have thought.

Just as people are free to say whatever they like, people are free to ignore the words being spoken by others exercising their First Amendment right. Which is what I'm going to do now--multiple times I've expressed my disinterest in hyperbole in general and where Moon is concerned in particular, and as you won't respect that we're done here. I have more constructive ways of spending my time, and I certainly hope you do as well.

Jesse Bullington on Oct. 20, 2010 at 1:55 PM

There's a huge difference between courting and rescinding, you might want to look at your own rhetoric if you're truly disinterested in hyperbole, and, for the record, I do think Bondoni is more wrong than right, but you're quite right: we both have stories to write. Good luck!

will shetterly on Oct. 20, 2010 at 2:19 PM

Standing at Thermopylae
http://www.starshipreckless.com/blog/?p=3186

Athena Andreadis on Oct. 20, 2010 at 3:28 PM

It's dangerous to ignore the rhetoric of your rhetoric's rhetoric! I have a much more cogent post to make when I have some time, but please, Shett and Jesse, take a second to review your own posts and each others' before continuing to descend. The quickest point I can make in current time allotted is that denying somebody's GoH status--that is, changing your mind about somebody being a stalwart representative of your chosen cause--is different from denying them speech entirely. People miss that distinction a lot in discussing Moon's presence at WisCon. Jesse first said that he believed her GoH status should be taken away, not her invitation, but stumbled on the reprisal. Will rightly took exception to that difference, but rather than correct and move on, made it a standing point, more classic derailment.

Layogenic on Oct. 20, 2010 at 3:52 PM

@ Athena--thanks for the link, good stuff.

@ Layogenic--ack, I'm sorry if it came across that I thought Moon should be uninvited entirely--that was certainly never my intention.

Jesse Bullington on Oct. 20, 2010 at 3:56 PM

Huh. This is just a question, not an opening for debate, because I won't argue with any answer: Would anyone expect Moon to come as an attendee after being uninvited as a GoH? Would anyone expect Obama to visit Notre Dame if they'd rescinded his invitation? Rescinding someone's GoH status seems like a mighty thorough rejection to me.

will shetterly on Oct. 20, 2010 at 4:35 PM

My expectation of Moon's attendance would unfortunately be tied to how well I knew her, which is not very well. If, having made some very disgusting statements about a large population of people that hurt and bewildered many of those who had previously chosen to honour me, I had that honour taken away? I can hope that, if I could pull my own admittedly large head from my behind, I could take that lesson to heart and come into the arena with the humble masses, perhaps even to make an apology. I hope I would be able to say, 'you're right, I'm sorry. Maybe next year.' If the invitation was rescinded entirely, no, I would also take that as a slice of humble pie, but with an extra sprinkling of bitterness that the response verged on censoring. If I was the first black president of the United States I would make a public address about censorship and how it hurts everybody. And if I was Will Shetterly I'd stop flip-flopping my arguments between "There's a huge difference between courting and rescinding" and "Rescinding someone's GoH status seems like a mighty thorough rejection to me." Inviting somebody to join their community is accepting--giving them airs is courting.

But the repercussion I *believe* Jesse is talking about, though I agree that it was maybe not as clear as it could have been, was simply taking the pride out of hosting Moon. To celebrate a bigot is counter-productive to all the causes we list here, including the feminism that WisCon is founded on, whatever other qualities a person may have. Those qualities may be outstanding as well, and may be enough to keep individuals from rejecting the person from their group of role-models entirely, but an establishment, a community, has the responsibility not only to protect free speech but to protect its constituents. Bigotry protects nobody, not even those who seem to benefit from it short term, as it invites reprisal that tends to be violent.

We've sort of moved past what my original post was going to entail, so I'll probably just work on an independent piece to flesh it out. For the purposes of this article, I'm afraid Shetterly has made himself a hapless target again throughout, so let's pick at that sore.

Shett, you tell us that you aren't here to tell us THE problem, but you do. You tell us through refusal to address the topic, and in this case specifically through these chosen articles that racism isn't the issue, classism is. Jesse rebutts with some things I find problematic, probably as a result of his self-admitted weakness of temper that, alas, we share, and is a common response of somebody who's being told that what's important to them doesn't really matter at all. I respect your commitment to your chosen cause--if pressed, I'd even agree that classism IS probably understudied in many of the fora I've seen you in--but I cannot agree with your disrespect of others' concerns and the derailment thereof. And no matter how much you deflect and obfuscate after the fact, you have a very well-documented track record of opening with just this tactic. You do your own cause damage with this tendency, which is sort of the opposite of the "good ways to handle this" topic this article was nominally about.

Consider (and this is to the general populace on topic here, Will included but not exclusively) opening conversation or joining conversation on somebody else's terms first. Many of the people in these discussions are coming from lives in which their terms are always dictated by somebody else, and sailing into what they thought was a safe space with your self-righteousness, earnest or not, is going to put them on the defensive in a hard way. If it's promising, try to explore more of your own issues. If it's not, don't waste your energy--not only will bashing your chosen horse to flog over their heads make them prejudiced against that horse later, but if you leave with a good, or at least lukewarm, impression, more progress might be made if the opportunity rises to engage them again.

Obviously, this is the soft touch idea, and is both a lot easier said than done (because GRRR sometimes you just want to crack SKULLS) and not 100% effective even if the approach is successful. The key to remember, as privileged allies, is this: we have nothing to lose. That's what makes us valuable allies. We can engage with another white person about racism, a rich person about classism, a man about sexism, and lose nothing (except maybe some brain cells and hope for the human race). Our position is not tenuous, and so we can always try again. And maybe that will mean my straight friend will be there when I'm struggling with queer rights, or my abled friend will be there when I just can't face one more jackass staring at my wheelchair and talking over my head.

Layogenic on Oct. 20, 2010 at 9:58 PM

Layo, I find your mention of derailing funny. Your comment of "LINKSPAM!" brought Racefail and E. Moon into this discussion; I can't be derailing when I'm only following your lead.

As for class, I bring it up because others don't. Now some antiracism theorists are making a token acknowledgment of class before they ignore it. That's enormous progress.

And, regarding the difference between courting and rescinding, no one's obliged to invite anyone to be a GoH. But having courted Ms. Moon, honor demands a very good reason to withdraw the offer. She was not asked to sign a declaration of ideological purity. She was asked because of her work. Not a period has changed in any of her books between the GoH offer and today.

will shetterly on Oct. 20, 2010 at 11:31 PM

Briefly--I must again apologize for being unclear in the heat of the discussion. Layogenic is correct that my intent was always to express the hope that Moon have her honored guest status removed but still be invited to participate; if she chose not to that would be another personal choice for her to make, just like making a hateful LJ post, just like refusing to acknowledge she might be mistaken, just like deciding to delete comments and stifle debate. There is, as Layogenic pointed out, all the difference in the world between telling a potential speaker "your recent actions make us feel you don't exemplify what we find best in the community after all, our mistake" and telling them "you're out of step with the party line, you're not allowed to participate in any panels or lectures until you recant." Many other good points in there, Layogenic, and thanks again for taking the time to contribute.

As for Will, well, I don't know what else needs to be said--I mentioned Moon in passing as an example of bigotry in the community--when called upon by Gustavo to provide examples of bigotry in the community, Layogenic did the same. The conversation up until you chose to change tracks, if you prefer, Will, was about bigots in the community, and calling them on their bigotry, and since you seem to both agree that Moon is a bigot and that calling her on it was important, I think it's incredibly disingenuous to claim that Layogenic got us on this topic and you were simply following his lead--multiple times the attempt has been made to steer things away from Moon and back to the original topic of Gustavo's article and the question of how best to engage with bigots when they talk their weak, and multiple times you have ignored that.

The last thing I'll say about this is that people have a right to be outraged by Moon's behavior, and they have a right to hope that WisCon rescinds her GoH status because of it--whether or not you agree with them is on you, but pretending that when a minority expresses the hope that a member of the majority be chastised for their hate and fear-mongering it's at all similar to a systemic attack on the career of a minority by an empowered majority is, as I said before, tosh.

Jesse Bullington on Oct. 21, 2010 at 11:49 AM

Thanks for saying everything in regards to the linkspam that I needed to say, Jesse, and so I'll leave it be. While the topic of Moon seems to be somewhat in flux, I think the various reactions to her are a very good topic in relation to how to handle bigotry, particularly from somebody in a position of privilege. Here we have a full spectrum, from people hollering for her blood to others compromising their own beliefs to defend hers. There are those wanting recompense, some just wanting to discuss it, some who want to sweep it all under the carpet (the WisCon board seems to be in this party), and others who, for the sake of my optimism, I won't say are in the minority of opinion, simply think that this needs to be acknowledged by all parties as something that cannot be rewarded.

To say that "honour demands" something is, I think, a very odd thing for somebody who's a) not living in an honourbound society and b) an adamant anti-classist to say. The premise of honorific is pure class, pure segregation based on those who can afford honour and those who cannot. And the make-believe constructs of "honour" and "justice" are imminently at odds, particularly as applied across the lines of prejudice (hence the word, "pre-judged", pre-empting justice).

Have I comported myself in a flawless example of my own philosophies? Certainly not! For one thing, I'm quite new at this, and for another, to err is, as they say, human. This doesn't mean I believe what I say any less, all it does is show that even if you're on the watch, you can miss an error in thinking, especially when it's your own. While we're all so willing to point out the errors in others, false or not, we should be at least as willing to accept the possibility that we are also in error when it's pointed out to us.

This turned a bit rambly, sorry, it's been a long week. But it is still, if only tenuously, connected to the topic of tolerance and bigotry and where the two meet. If somebody is hurt by a statement such as Moon's, or Bear's, or Shetterly's, or mine, I don't think they're wrong to have a reaction. I need to consider what I said (if, in fact, I care about having hurt this person, and if I don't I'm a dick) came from some part of myself I haven't examined, some preconception or internalized dogma or just a core of the fear and anger that breeds bigotry. And I should apologise regardless, with consideration of my conclusions about that examination.

If I apologise, by which I mean actually say I'm sorry directly to the hurt, not what ithiliana has rightly called a faux-pology buried in distraction and deflection or back-handed language, then the person who attacked my words also has a responsibility to consider that apology, but in almost all cases a heartfelt apology and open willingness to take what was said to heart diffuses that ugly situation. Then, as they say, we can work on getting off the foot, usually coming to the conclusion that it was my unseeing step that hurt the person, but sometimes it was a mistake and I didn't step on their foot at all. But that apology cost me nothing.

That's important to reiterate. That apology cost ME nothing, because from a position of privilege I haven't been apologising for myself my entire life. I haven't been apologising for being black by quietly consuming stacks and stacks of white-washed fiction, games, movies. I haven't been apologising for being black by writing or programming or filming things that are digestible by white folk just so I can make money doing what I love (or just make money at all). I haven't been apologising for being born with body parts that don't work, or that men see as their property and that displaying them is an invitation for them to take them. I haven't been apologising for having fat deposits on my chest that cause men to degrade me in public on street corners (accompanied by fear of attack), that eventually sag and become topics for more degrading later (accompanied by shame of being human and aging like one). For me, an apology is easy.

Layogenic on Oct. 21, 2010 at 12:55 PM

And I accidently clicked submit while trying to fix a typo. Well, I was just going to wrap up with the note tying into my last post that approaching bigotry from privilege means we have the freedom to meet the bigot with more tolerance, to able to be gentle where those who were actually hurt by the bigotry are under no such restraints and shouldn't have to be. But to be more gentle doesn't mean that we should undermine our allies' efforts--we shouldn't coddle somebody's injured pride just because "those mean ol' gays called you names." It just means we can afford the patience to let them rant and meet that rant with a reasoned "yes, you're angry, but you were still wrong."

Layogenic on Oct. 21, 2010 at 1:01 PM

Well, Moon is out: http://sf3.org/2010/10/elizabeth-moon/

Now I'm positive there will be better places to discuss all this than the current thread--this is purely selfish on my part, as I'm in bad need of an internet break to get caught up on work before WFC next week and when people comment on my blog I feel obligated to respond...something I've already been sloppy about following an unexpected increase in my workload yesterday. Again, my thanks to everyone for the discussion, especially Layogenic for tackling the chestnuts I've neglected, apologies for my admitted snark if it hath offended, and, in closing, I respect the wishes of my friend Molly Tanzer who, while also taking an internet vacation, would like me to clarify that, contrary to Mr. Bondoni's allegation, Jane Austen is in no way a Victorian author. Ciao!

Jesse Bullington on Oct. 21, 2010 at 1:17 PM

Keep well, Jesse. Thanks for the convo.

Layogenic on Oct. 21, 2010 at 1:19 PM

And really, Layogenic, I'm sorry for not responding better to your comments--we're very much in agreement, I think, but you make the points much more succinctly than I ever could--a temper is a terrible thing to lose in an argument, and I think you hit many a nail on the head, especially where owning one's behavior is concerned. Thanks again.

Jesse Bullington on Oct. 21, 2010 at 1:20 PM

Jesse, you're right that you mentioned Moon first, and Layo added the links about Moon and Racefail, so if you think it's important to say I was being disingenuous by only mentioning Layo, that's cool. The fact is that I didn't look far enough back--I simply cited the comment that inspired me to leave a few links.

Layo, your Eurocentricism is showing: honor is not a concept that only the ruling classes understand. Here's a little on the subject by a Canadian Indian:

http://honorfoundation.org/silversong.html

will shetterly on Oct. 21, 2010 at 2:56 PM

That's a perfectly valid point, Will. I hike up my pants and apologise profusely for not thinking wide enough in my definition of "honour." Besides the eurocentric view of the term, I was also considering the historical and contemporary East Asian examples, which are also highly classist and, in my liberal studies of Japan in particular, highly problematic. But there are systems under the definition of "honour" that were built to the opposite effect--as checks and balances against the very thing I defined honour as being created for.

Of course, this wasn't what you were talking about, either. Calling somebody honourbound to approve somebody regardless of that person's actions is rigidly in opposition to fair and balanced action. If I offer you my hand in friendship, and you spit on my other friend, I am not bound to continue to accept you, regardless of the qualities I originally prized in you. If I am a community orginzation it goes even further; I am *obligated* to protect my stated constituency, and must make my decisions--and rescind them--with that in mind. Waffling and inaction aside, I can believe that the concomm's hesitation to remove GoH status reflected their appreciation of Moon's work under their status as a SF&F; community, as well as being a woman, under their stated feminist mission. And they were put in the untenable position of having somebody under their umbrella of protection attack other people under their umbrella of protection. In the end, choosing not to glorify them but not to ostracise them either seems like the only fair way to handle that situation, especially from the perspective of bureaucracy.

Layogenic on Oct. 21, 2010 at 3:30 PM

To try to leave this with some agreement, I'll admit that "honor" is a tricky word. I object to its use in the instances you were thinking of. Sadly, if we purged English of all classist words, we would be unable to say some things. "Classy", for example, in the colloquial sense, is useful, and "stylish" doesn't have quite cover the meaning. So I work with what we got, and sometimes that means we end up being divided by a shared language.

I agree with much of what you say in the second paragraph, but I don't think it applies to a group's invitation to an individual. Well. Time to agree to disagree, and move on. Cheers!

will shetterly on Oct. 21, 2010 at 11:05 PM

My invited response on the Apex blog: Steering the Craft

Athena Andreadis on Oct. 26, 2010 at 10:04 AM
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